Difference between revisions of "User:Mjb/Discogs notes"

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m (LP vs. 12": clarifying I have no proposed replacement text yet)
m (Formats: bold text for format names, and some minor copy edits)
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===Acetate (new definition)===
 
===Acetate (new definition)===
  
An acetate, also known as a lacquer cut or dubplate, is similar to a vinyl record, but the disc is made of lacquer-coated metal. An acetate can be played directly about 6 times before the audio quality becomes intolerable. The lacquer also shrinks and flakes off over time, rendering many older acetates unplayable. Most acetates are not played, but rather are electroplated and used as the basis for physical molds for pressing vinyl records. This type of acetate often has an inch or more of unused space near the outer edge.
+
An '''acetate''', also known as a '''lacquer cut''' or '''dubplate''', is similar to a vinyl record, but the disc is made of lacquer-coated metal. An acetate can be played directly about 6 times before the audio quality becomes intolerable. The lacquer also shrinks and flakes off over time, rendering many older acetates unplayable. Most acetates are not played, but rather are electroplated and used as the basis for physical molds for pressing vinyl records. This type of acetate often has an inch or more of unused space near the outer edge.
  
 
In the mid-20th Century, there were coin-operated novelty booths which created small, one-off acetates of audio recorded by the buyer through a microphone; these should not be submitted. Historically significant one-offs may be submitted, as well as professional test cuts that were made for releases already in the database, but any other acetates should be discussed first.
 
In the mid-20th Century, there were coin-operated novelty booths which created small, one-off acetates of audio recorded by the buyer through a microphone; these should not be submitted. Historically significant one-offs may be submitted, as well as professional test cuts that were made for releases already in the database, but any other acetates should be discussed first.
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===Lathe Cut (new definition)===
 
===Lathe Cut (new definition)===
  
A lathe cut is similar to an acetate, but instead of being cut into an oversized lacquer-coated metal disc, the groove is carved directly into some other material. The material can be vinyl, but this is not how vinyl records are normally made; sound quality is very poor as compared to pressed vinyl. Lathe cuts tend to be novelty items and generally should not be submitted. In the 2010s, a number of vendors on online auction sites began selling bootleg picture discs which are advertised as rare collectors' items, but which in reality are homemade lathe cuts which may not even contain the pictured artist's music. Historically significant lathe cuts, even one-offs, may be submitted, but others should be discussed first.
+
A '''lathe cut''' is similar to an acetate, but instead of being cut into an oversized lacquer-coated metal disc, the spiral groove is carved directly into some other material. The material can be vinyl, but this is not how vinyl records are normally made; sound quality is very poor as compared to pressed vinyl. Lathe cuts tend to be novelty items and generally should not be submitted. In the 2010s, a number of vendors on online auction sites began selling bootleg picture discs which are advertised as rare collectors' items, but which in reality are homemade lathe cuts which may not even contain the pictured artist's music. Historically significant lathe cuts, even one-offs, may be submitted, but others should be discussed first.
  
 
===Pathé Disc (new definition)===
 
===Pathé Disc (new definition)===
  
A Pathé Disc is similar to a shellac 78, but contains a vertically cut groove, like an Edison Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Pathé Discs were on the Pathé label and often came in unusual sizes. Early discs were 90 RPM with an inside-start groove. In 1915 they switched to 80 RPM and outside-start. Pathé Discs were produced from 1905 to 1932, mostly on the Pathé label.
+
A '''Pathé Disc''' is a record similar to a shellac 78, but contains a vertically cut groove, like an Edison Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Pathé Discs were on the Pathé label and often came in unusual sizes. Early discs were 90 RPM with an inside-start groove. In 1915 they switched to 80 RPM and outside-start. Pathé Discs were produced from 1905 to 1932, mostly on the Pathé label.
  
 
In 1920, the company also began producing lateral-cut records with the Actuelle or Pathé Actuelle label; these are mostly 10" records and should be entered as Shellac, not Pathé Disc.
 
In 1920, the company also began producing lateral-cut records with the Actuelle or Pathé Actuelle label; these are mostly 10" records and should be entered as Shellac, not Pathé Disc.
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===Edison Disc (new definition)===
 
===Edison Disc (new definition)===
  
An Edison Disc, also known as a Diamond Disc, is similar to a shellac 78, but it is ¼-inch thick, and contains a vertically cut groove, like a Pathé Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Edison Discs were produced from 1912 to 1929.
+
An '''Edison Disc''', also known as a '''Diamond Disc''', is similar to a shellac 78, but it is ¼-inch thick, and contains a vertically cut groove, like a Pathé Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Edison Discs were produced from 1912 to 1929.
  
 
More info: http://www.obsoletemedia.org/edison-diamond-disc/
 
More info: http://www.obsoletemedia.org/edison-diamond-disc/
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===Shellac (new definition)===
 
===Shellac (new definition)===
  
Shellac records account for the majority of what are called "78s". They are made partially from secretions of the lac beetle. Speeds varied greatly at first, but since the mid-1920s, most play at exactly 78.26 RPM (commonly regarded as "78 RPM"). Most are 10" or 12" in diameter, and they are pressed from molds which are based on original wax discs cut during a live performance via a lathe with a horn or microphone attached. The groove is laterally cut. Most shellac records contain a type of groove called "coarse" or "standard play", meaning it is made for a needle or conical stylus with a tip roughly 3 mil (0.0030") in diameter, as compared to the post-WWII "fine" or "microgroove" type of groove which was standard for vinyl LPs and 45s.
+
'''Shellac records''' account for the majority of what are called "78s". They are made partially from secretions of the lac beetle. Speeds varied greatly at first, but since the mid-1920s, most play at exactly 78.26 RPM (commonly regarded as "78 RPM"). Most are 10" or 12" in diameter, and they are pressed from molds which are based on original wax discs cut during a live performance via a lathe with a horn or microphone attached. The groove is laterally cut. Most shellac records contain a type of groove called "coarse" or "standard play", meaning it is made for a needle or conical stylus with a tip roughly 3 mil (0.0030") in diameter, as compared to the post-WWII "fine" or "microgroove" type of groove which was standard for vinyl LPs and 45s.
  
Most "shellac" records were actually a composite of materials around a core of some kind, with the amount of shellac and the types of fillers variable and secret. New shellac records were shiny and resembled black vinyl, but repeated plays and mishandling often dulls the finish significantly. Shellac records were produced from 1889 to about 1960.
+
Most shellac records were not pure shellac, but were actually a composite of materials around a core of some kind, with the amount and types of materials variable and kept secret. New shellac records were shiny and resembled black vinyl, but repeated plays and mishandling often dulls the finish significantly. Shellac records were produced from 1889 to about 1960.
  
 
Not all 78 RPM records are shellac; post-WWII releases can be Shellac or Vinyl. After WWII, some companies switched to hard, thin plastic formulations, often labeled "unbreakable"; these should be considered Vinyl. If the record is thick and coarse-groove, either Shellac or Vinyl is acceptable. A relatively small number of vinyl records were produced with coarse groove and 33 RPM, or microgroove and 78 RPM. These should be entered as Vinyl, not Shellac.
 
Not all 78 RPM records are shellac; post-WWII releases can be Shellac or Vinyl. After WWII, some companies switched to hard, thin plastic formulations, often labeled "unbreakable"; these should be considered Vinyl. If the record is thick and coarse-groove, either Shellac or Vinyl is acceptable. A relatively small number of vinyl records were produced with coarse groove and 33 RPM, or microgroove and 78 RPM. These should be entered as Vinyl, not Shellac.
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===Vinyl (new definition)===
 
===Vinyl (new definition)===
  
Vinyl is the most popular record format. It is normally pressed from hot, high-pressure molds in 7", 10" or 12" sizes, with the groove laterally cut at 33⅓ or 45 RPM, or less commonly at 78.26 ("78") or 16⅔ RPM. Vinyl is not a single material, but rather a chemical mix consisting mainly of a type of petroleum-based plastic called Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), dyes for color (typically black), an antifungal agent, and plasticizers which add flexibility. Vinyl records are lightweight and thin, as compared to shellac 78s, and many are somewhat flexible, unless marketed as "unbreakable".
+
'''Vinyl records''', also called just '''vinyl''', are the most popular record format. They are normally pressed from hot, high-pressure molds in 7", 10" or 12" sizes, with the groove laterally cut at 33⅓ or 45 RPM, or less commonly at 78.26 ("78") or 16⅔ RPM. Vinyl is not a single material, but rather a chemical mix consisting mainly of a type of petroleum-based plastic called Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), dyes for color (typically black), an antifungal agent, and plasticizers which add flexibility. Vinyl records are lightweight and thin, as compared to shellac 78s. Vinyl records can be very flexible, or they can be very stiff, like the "unbreakable" records marketed mainly in the 1940s and 1950s.
  
 
78 RPM vinyl records for consumers debuted in late 1945. The 33⅓ RPM microgroove "LP" (10" or 12") debuted in 1948. The 7" 45 RPM format debuted in 1949 and was also microgroove. Variations exist, such as 7" at 33⅓ RPM or 12" at 45 RPM. Coarse-groove vinyl records also exist but were uncommon and were discontinued by the late 1950s.
 
78 RPM vinyl records for consumers debuted in late 1945. The 33⅓ RPM microgroove "LP" (10" or 12") debuted in 1948. The 7" 45 RPM format debuted in 1949 and was also microgroove. Variations exist, such as 7" at 33⅓ RPM or 12" at 45 RPM. Coarse-groove vinyl records also exist but were uncommon and were discontinued by the late 1950s.
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Microgroove records are designed for a stylus with a tip of 0.7 to 1.0 mil (0.0007" to 0.0010") at a relatively low tracking force (5 grams or less, usually around half that). The groove can potentially be so narrow, shallow, and tightly packed that a coarse-groove stylus cannot stay play it at all. However, many mono microgroove records do not push those limits and can actually be played with such a stylus; it just rides higher in the groove.
 
Microgroove records are designed for a stylus with a tip of 0.7 to 1.0 mil (0.0007" to 0.0010") at a relatively low tracking force (5 grams or less, usually around half that). The groove can potentially be so narrow, shallow, and tightly packed that a coarse-groove stylus cannot stay play it at all. However, many mono microgroove records do not push those limits and can actually be played with such a stylus; it just rides higher in the groove.
  
Vinyl records were all mono until stereo was introduced in 1957. Stereo is always microgroove, with the side channel stored in the groove depth. Many stereo records were initially marketed as "compatible", to reassure consumers that the new format was compatible with mono systems.
+
Vinyl records were all mono until stereo was introduced in late 1957. Stereo is always microgroove, with the side channel stored in the groove depth. Many stereo records were initially marketed as "compatible", to reassure consumers that the new format was compatible with mono systems.
  
 
A "picture disc" is clear vinyl with a visible, printed cardstock core.
 
A "picture disc" is clear vinyl with a visible, printed cardstock core.

Revision as of 21:54, 17 April 2018

Formats

The formats list is incomplete and has errors and misleading guidance such as "Only to be used for production runs, not for one offs" when in fact we do allow one-offs which don't meet a vague definition of "homemade".

I tried starting a discussion re: updating the definitions of Acetate and Lathe Cut, but nobody replied.

Here are my current suggestions for some replacement entries, although I admit these may contain too much detail:

Acetate (new definition)

An acetate, also known as a lacquer cut or dubplate, is similar to a vinyl record, but the disc is made of lacquer-coated metal. An acetate can be played directly about 6 times before the audio quality becomes intolerable. The lacquer also shrinks and flakes off over time, rendering many older acetates unplayable. Most acetates are not played, but rather are electroplated and used as the basis for physical molds for pressing vinyl records. This type of acetate often has an inch or more of unused space near the outer edge.

In the mid-20th Century, there were coin-operated novelty booths which created small, one-off acetates of audio recorded by the buyer through a microphone; these should not be submitted. Historically significant one-offs may be submitted, as well as professional test cuts that were made for releases already in the database, but any other acetates should be discussed first.

Lathe Cut (new definition)

A lathe cut is similar to an acetate, but instead of being cut into an oversized lacquer-coated metal disc, the spiral groove is carved directly into some other material. The material can be vinyl, but this is not how vinyl records are normally made; sound quality is very poor as compared to pressed vinyl. Lathe cuts tend to be novelty items and generally should not be submitted. In the 2010s, a number of vendors on online auction sites began selling bootleg picture discs which are advertised as rare collectors' items, but which in reality are homemade lathe cuts which may not even contain the pictured artist's music. Historically significant lathe cuts, even one-offs, may be submitted, but others should be discussed first.

Pathé Disc (new definition)

A Pathé Disc is a record similar to a shellac 78, but contains a vertically cut groove, like an Edison Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Pathé Discs were on the Pathé label and often came in unusual sizes. Early discs were 90 RPM with an inside-start groove. In 1915 they switched to 80 RPM and outside-start. Pathé Discs were produced from 1905 to 1932, mostly on the Pathé label.

In 1920, the company also began producing lateral-cut records with the Actuelle or Pathé Actuelle label; these are mostly 10" records and should be entered as Shellac, not Pathé Disc.

More info:

Edison Disc (new definition)

An Edison Disc, also known as a Diamond Disc, is similar to a shellac 78, but it is ¼-inch thick, and contains a vertically cut groove, like a Pathé Disc (only the depth of the groove changes). Edison Discs were produced from 1912 to 1929.

More info: http://www.obsoletemedia.org/edison-diamond-disc/

Shellac (new definition)

Shellac records account for the majority of what are called "78s". They are made partially from secretions of the lac beetle. Speeds varied greatly at first, but since the mid-1920s, most play at exactly 78.26 RPM (commonly regarded as "78 RPM"). Most are 10" or 12" in diameter, and they are pressed from molds which are based on original wax discs cut during a live performance via a lathe with a horn or microphone attached. The groove is laterally cut. Most shellac records contain a type of groove called "coarse" or "standard play", meaning it is made for a needle or conical stylus with a tip roughly 3 mil (0.0030") in diameter, as compared to the post-WWII "fine" or "microgroove" type of groove which was standard for vinyl LPs and 45s.

Most shellac records were not pure shellac, but were actually a composite of materials around a core of some kind, with the amount and types of materials variable and kept secret. New shellac records were shiny and resembled black vinyl, but repeated plays and mishandling often dulls the finish significantly. Shellac records were produced from 1889 to about 1960.

Not all 78 RPM records are shellac; post-WWII releases can be Shellac or Vinyl. After WWII, some companies switched to hard, thin plastic formulations, often labeled "unbreakable"; these should be considered Vinyl. If the record is thick and coarse-groove, either Shellac or Vinyl is acceptable. A relatively small number of vinyl records were produced with coarse groove and 33 RPM, or microgroove and 78 RPM. These should be entered as Vinyl, not Shellac.

Do not use the Mono tag on Shellac records; they are all mono.

Vinyl (new definition)

Vinyl records, also called just vinyl, are the most popular record format. They are normally pressed from hot, high-pressure molds in 7", 10" or 12" sizes, with the groove laterally cut at 33⅓ or 45 RPM, or less commonly at 78.26 ("78") or 16⅔ RPM. Vinyl is not a single material, but rather a chemical mix consisting mainly of a type of petroleum-based plastic called Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), dyes for color (typically black), an antifungal agent, and plasticizers which add flexibility. Vinyl records are lightweight and thin, as compared to shellac 78s. Vinyl records can be very flexible, or they can be very stiff, like the "unbreakable" records marketed mainly in the 1940s and 1950s.

78 RPM vinyl records for consumers debuted in late 1945. The 33⅓ RPM microgroove "LP" (10" or 12") debuted in 1948. The 7" 45 RPM format debuted in 1949 and was also microgroove. Variations exist, such as 7" at 33⅓ RPM or 12" at 45 RPM. Coarse-groove vinyl records also exist but were uncommon and were discontinued by the late 1950s.

Microgroove records are designed for a stylus with a tip of 0.7 to 1.0 mil (0.0007" to 0.0010") at a relatively low tracking force (5 grams or less, usually around half that). The groove can potentially be so narrow, shallow, and tightly packed that a coarse-groove stylus cannot stay play it at all. However, many mono microgroove records do not push those limits and can actually be played with such a stylus; it just rides higher in the groove.

Vinyl records were all mono until stereo was introduced in late 1957. Stereo is always microgroove, with the side channel stored in the groove depth. Many stereo records were initially marketed as "compatible", to reassure consumers that the new format was compatible with mono systems.

A "picture disc" is clear vinyl with a visible, printed cardstock core.

Not all 7" 45s are vinyl; some are Styrene, a separate format. [We need info here on how to distinguish.]

Not all vinyl records are pressed from molds; some novelty records are directly cut using blank vinyl discs and a lathe, and have very poor sound quality; see the Lathe Cut format.

The plural of vinyl is vinyl. If you have many vinyl records, you have a lot of vinyl, not "vinyls".

More info:

LP vs. 12"

Section 6.6 of the submission guidelines tries to explain the difference between a 12" and an LP. This was originally based on a misunderstanding of microgroove; it was incorrectly assumed that LPs use microgroove and 12" singles do not. When the error was pointed out, the offending term was eventually removed, but now the section does not really seem very useful, and its talk of groove types is misleading.

This section needs to be rewritten with the focus being mainly just to keep people from putting the LP tag on a 12", and secondarily to clarify whether an album comprising multiple 45 RPM 12" records can still be tagged LP.

Groove pitch and density should have nothing to do with it, since there are plenty of 12"s which are 33 RPM and album-length and not fundamentally different from LPs, and there are albums which are split up onto multiple 12"-length discs, sometimes even at 45 RPM, thus not fundamentally different from 12"s.

Sorry, I don't actually have a proposal for replacement text for this section yet.

Coarse groove vs. microgroove

I do feel that it would be good for people to understand coarse and microgroove, but as this does not directly affect submissions, it should not be in the submission guidelines. I don't know where to put it. Also, the following explanation repeats a bit of what I said in the proposed format definitions above. Well, anyway...

Vinyl records are cut within certain tolerances. The "look" of the groove can vary quite a bit because of this.

Coarse groove or "SP" is what shellac 78s and and pre-LP vinyl records used. If you play these records with a microgroove (a.k.a. fine-groove) stereo needle, which is 2.5x to 3x narrower than a coarse-groove needle, it might work on some records, but it probably will not sound ideal, and it may wear out your needle much faster than normal. Likewise, you can use a coarse-groove needle on a mono microgroove record, but it will ride higher in the groove and may need a high tracking weight, which will wear out the vinyl over repeated plays.

Microgroove allows for fitting more play time onto a side, and is essentially required for stereo. Nearly all vinyl records made since the advent of the LP, even if they are mono, are cut to microgroove specs (e.g. IEC 98 or IEC 60098).

Microgroove allows for thinner records. Records were already becoming thinner in the 1940s and 1950s, as substitutes for shellac were found, but microgroove allows for the thinnest records yet.

Coarse groove wasn't standardized until 1964, the same year most countries stopped producing it, and the info was removed from the specs altogether in the 1970s.

Although microgroove was invented to enable creating long-play records (LPs), microgroove alone does not make a 12" record an LP. 12" records can still be cut with a relatively loud, short piece of music, and with a wide space between each turn of the spiral—this is typical on many 12" singles. The look can be similar to that of a coarse-groove record, but it is still microgroove, made to be played by a modern stylus. http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/standards_table.htm has some specs and notes for the microgrooves. Basically the standards set some minimums (sometimes) and maximums, and as technology improved into the 1970s, they found that the minimums could be reduced quite a bit, allowing even more music to be cut onto a side. Groove top width can be as low as 30 microns, bottom width as low as 4 microns, needle tip radius 0.5 to 0.7 mil for stereo and up to 1.0 mil (25 µm) for mono (1 mil = 0.001"). In contrast, a typical coarse groove needle tip radius is 2.5 mil! (64 µm).

A mono coarse groove will have a minimum top width of ~150 µm (5.9 mil) and bottom radius of ~25 µm (1 mil), with optimum spherical tip radius about half that (2.8 mil), with 2.0 to 2.5 mil recommended for "modern" records (as of 1958). Different tip radius = different depth (needle rides higher or lower in the groove).

A 1979 Indian standard (IS 9279-1) says a mono microgroove tip radius should be 13 to 25 µm (0.5 to 1.0 mil), stereo 13 to 18 µm (0.5 to 0.7 mil), coarse 51 to 76 µm (2.0 to 3.0 mil).

A 1964 European standard (IEC 98) says a mono coarse groove tip radius for 78 rpm EPs (and it is implied as being for vinyl only) is 2.1 to 2.5 mil (53 to 63 µm). The 1958 standard does not imply vinyl, and says 2 to 3 mil (50 to 75 µm).

A mono microgroove will have a top width as small as 2 mil, but I have found that my 2.5 mil conical stylus plays mono LPs & 45s without any problem, so they must have a top width greater than 5 mil (127 µm)! I suspect record manufacturers made an effort to cut mono vinyl with a groove that would be "compatible" with both stylus types.

  • Audio Technica AT MONO/SP3 conical "needle size" = 2.5 mil
  • Shure M97xE elliptical stylus tip radii = 0.2 x 0.7 mil
  • A 1969 German standard says tip radius in 1969 was 15 μm (0.6 mil) (1975 standard: 15 to 18 μm = 0.5 to 0.7 mil)
  • https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/734135?page=1#7335020 (this info in a relatively concise post by me)

Deep groove

"Deep groove" has nothing to do with coarse groove or microgroove; in fact it has nothing to do with the groove containing the music. It is a stamper ring set into the label area, deeper than most. Classical and jazz collectors sometimes use it to distinguish pressings.

Discogs history

Some key events:

  • late 2000: Site launch, accepting Electronic releases only. All submissions & edits moderated. Label often defined or determined by the record company named in copyright notices, sometimes with a country name in parentheses appended. Single, Maxi-Single, etc. defined based on number of tracks. Catalog numbers routinely fudged for consistency and sorting. Titles/mix titles routinely fudged for consistency or perceived artist intent. Release notes appear above the tracklist and are always kept very short or blank.
  • 2004: In a database upgrade, much of the release history data is blanked or removed.
  • Apr 2005: first employee hired (nik, as Community Manager).
  •  ?: Style tags introduced, Electronic releases with no style tag get tagged Electro (whoops!).
  • 2006 or 2007: CD5" format replaced by CD + Maxi-Single automatically.
  • c. 2007–2008: Label finally based on branding.
  • Aug 2007: v3 launch
  • Feb 2008: nik says promo-stamped/mutilated retail releases OK as separate releases – http://www.discogs.com/groups/topic/156222 (thread now deleted!). Users shoot it down within months.
  • Mar 2008: v4 launch - No more moderators, all changes are "live" with a new voting system. Months-long moderation queue instantly cleared by approving all pending edits and submissions. Forums previously only visible to moderators and editors now hidden/deleted. Many users disparage the changes as "WikiOgs", leave in protest, and try to start a new moderated database (DiscographyDB) which results in many arguments and never gets off the ground.
  •  ?: The ability to merge artists is introduced, then is taken away.
  •  ?: The ability to merge releases is introduced, taken away, and reintroduced.
  •  ?: HTML is no longer parsed in release notes.
  •  ?: Forums split into staff-moderated Forums (help forums) and user-created-and-moderated "Groups".
  • May 2009: Master Release functionality added.
  • Dec 2009: BAOI fields added.
  •  ?: Index tracks renamed to headings, and new index track feature debuts
  • Aug 2011: LCCN fields added (divides labels into several types)

Your help is needed to add more important developments to this list! Contact mjb on Discogs.

The UK & Europe country tag

There used to be just a UK tag and a Europe tag, no tag for "UK & Europe". IIRC, the original request for the tag was made in 2008 by Lazlo.Nibble, but I think I may have also discussed it with nik in a now-deleted discussion.

There is a loud minority of users who strongly oppose the UK & Europe tag. They argue that the UK is part of Europe, so the Europe tag should suffice for any release which the UK & Europe tag would be applied to. By having a UK & Europe tag, it reinforces the incorrect notion that the Europe tag cannot include the UK.

The original request for the tag was asking for it in order to solve the problem of the choice of UK or Europe or blank never being quite right, causing confusion for a release which has both UK & international catalog numbers. This happens often with singles, but also with albums. One edition is marked for UK only, one is marked for parts of continental Europe only, and then one has indications of being for both. The goal of having a new tag would be so we could respectively tag them as UK, Europe, and UK & Europe, which would make them easier to distinguish on the artist and label pages. Indeed, this is how the tag ended up being used, once it was available. That is, a release which looks like a UK release but also has indications of being marketed anywhere in continental Europe normally gets the UK & Europe tag.

In the original proposal there was no discussion of whether a release's market was an inference rather than something explicitly mentioned on the item. There was no discussion of whether an explicit mention had to specifically mention distribution or if, say, "D:" and "F:" prefixes on German and French price codes would suffice. There was no discussion of these things, I believe, because it was (and is) normal to make inferences of the market countries rather than look for explicit mentions, which are exceedingly rare.

It wasn't until 2011 that we got any guidance for using the tag, at which point nik's memory starts to slip and he asks us to confirm whether it was only for when UK & Europe are both mentioned somewhere: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/326927#3087000

He then weighed in on a release which had boilerplate Ariola "Distributed in Europe" text as well as price codes prefixed with UK, D, and F. He said that this would be OK to tag as UK & Europe. https://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/326927#3086408

Over the next few years, some users increasingly interpreted his 2011 posts as requiring explicit mention of UK and Europe. This was not without debate, confusion, and contradictory advice, e.g. at https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/344690 and https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/402608

IMHO, the fact that you can infer Europe for the use of the Europe tag, and you can infer UK for the use of the UK tag, make it difficult to reconcile the notion that you cannot base the UK & Europe tag on the same kind of inferences. Nevertheless, nik finally came back in 2016 for another round of talking in riddles, as one user put it. This time, his recollection of the purpose of the tag was now certain:

"UK & Europe" was an extraneous tag added to be used where the release is explicitly marked as being distributed in the UK and Europe, as separate entities.

Ugh, he is wrong here. When pressed to explain, he ended up reiterating his position that UK must be explicit if the UK & Europe tag is to be used. Yet, his choice of phrasing, "if a release is distributed in...", again leaves uncertainty around what can be inferred from catalog numbers, price codes, rights societies, and so on. How are we determining that the release "is distributed" in a particular place?

If a release is distributed in the UK, it is a UK release.

If a release is distributed in Europe (can include the UK), it is a European release. (NOTE this is different from the EU)
If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

If in doubt, DO NOT USE the "UK and Europe" tag.

This was at https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/717608?page=1#7127309

I'm sure he thought he was keeping it simple. I understand and accept the notion that the Europe tag can include the UK, but the status quo is that we are still allowed to infer UK (without explicit mention of it) for the UK tag, and we are allowed to use the Europe tag for multiple/ambiguous continental European countries which may be inferred as well. So how is it we cannot use the UK & Europe tag when we infer both the UK and at least one continental European country? This wasn't how the tag was proposed nor how it is normally used.

We are also nowadays having discussions of whether we can ever infer anything about the market countries. It was pointed out that even explicit "UK" and "Int" cat#s, price codes, and "Distributed in" text is often boilerplate and not trustworthy for knowing where a release was actually intended to be distributed. Likewise, there is increasing skepticism of what can be inferred from dinking, catalog number formats, price codes, and rights societies. It is getting ridiculous, as if all the codes and text on the release have no meaning at all. We are heading toward just leaving every country field blank. Of course, even when blank is the best option, sooner or later someone will come in and "fix" it by filling it in with whatever their opinion is, so that won't work either.

Anytime these topics come up, the discussions are often derailed by useless and shortsighted complaints about market country being a fiction or an impossible analysis that goes far beyond what is verifiable or explicitly on the releases. They usually shut up when I point out the simple example of how there'd be a mutiny if we were unable to easily differentiate between CDs made in Japan (because that's where the first pressing plants were) and actual Japanese (Japan-market) releases. If Discogs would add fields for manufacturing locations and make them show up alongside the market, I feel these complaints would die down, probably replaced by arguments about whether those fields can being filled in with inferred info.

Nik did at least make clear that the (market) country field is for differentiation purposes moreso than precision, so we should not get too wound up about it. I just wish that he and the griping users would realize that by making the UK & Europe tag something which will almost never be used, they are failing to solve the original issue which I described in the boldface text above.

As it stands, I can't make heads or tails of when we are allowed to use the tag. I think it is basically never. Or maybe it is this:

  • UK - for releases assumed to be marketed in the UK only.
  • Europe - for releases assumed to be for more than one region of continental Europe (i.e., there isn't another country tag which will be more accurate), and possibly including UK (as inferred from a UK-style catalog number, if present).
  • UK & Europe - for releases which would normally be tagged Europe (see above) and which explicitly mention UK.

But I am not 100% certain that's really what nik was saying.

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